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Ep 12: He Made Millions From… Blankets, Bean Bags & Candles?

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John Fierentino: This is the secret everyone focuses other shit that doesn’t matter. What’s your conversion rate, or this, or like this, like this. It’s like wait, what are you selling? Whenever I sit down, I always talk about the politics. That shit is the most exciting. That’s why we’re here. That’s what we are selling. I’m not selling some arbitrage on Facebook, or access to an email list, or some sale. It’s like no, no, no. It’s so fucking simple. I make the best bean bag ever. That’s it. That’s why we’re here.

Shaan Puri: Thank you for coming. I appreciate it.

John Fierentino: Yeah, no. Thanks for having me.

Shaan Puri: I got a message from a friend, Zach, who’s over at Founders fund and the good thing is when I started the podcast, it was just my friends. I was like I know I can have like these 10 guests on. These are my friends. I know they have good stories. And I was like I don’t know what I would do after that. But the good thing was that Zach and others basically, once they heard a few episodes, they’re like, “Oh, you got to have this person on the podcast. And so, he sent me one of those emails. “Oh, you got to have John on the podcast.” SO you are the founder of, I don’t know what the company is actually called, but the product I’ve seen for years, called the “Gravity blanket”. What’s the actual company called?

John Fierentino: Yeah. So basically, there’s gravity blanket, moon pod, and then this new one called ‘Birthday candle’. So, I guess I have my “John [inaudible 00:01:17]” thing. And I’ll spin up these companies, and kind of do it product by product and put a team around them and sort of walk away, or grow it, or whatever.

John Fierentino: So gravity is its own beast and monster with a partner, Moon pod. I have a team running that one. And then, this new one birthday candle, also a team on that one. And it’s all these little things and they’re spinning them up, running them, doubling down on what’s working and then continuing to iterate and launch and double down.

Shaan Puri: Awesome. SO I’m excited because I have a few of these business fantasies. People have actual fantasies. They want to role play, they want to do whatever. I have these business fantasies. One of my business fantasies is to do a mega-successful Kickstarter, which you’ve done. So, you’ve did a Kickstarter, I think raised almost five million bucks. Is that right, five? It’s close to five.

John Fierentino: Gravity was 4.7 and then, Moon Pod was like 1.4.

Shaan Puri: Okay. So even higher than five total. But one of my fantasies is do a super successful Kickstarter. The other is to create this, like a viral product. Basically, when I saw the snuggie, I was like, “Wow, this is genius.” Somebody made this comfortable blanket. I remember having several brainstorms with friends and be like, “What’s another snuggie?”

John Fierentino: What’s another snuggie. That’s funny-

Shaan Puri: And we kind of, not to make a joke of it, but you kind of did another snuggie.

John Fierentino: That was the joke. That was the joke with the team that were doing this. We would take breaks and I’ll walk around with my partner, and we’d be like.”How hysterical is this going to be if we actually make the next snuggie [crosstalk 00:02:45].

John Fierentino: Because one of our manufacturers, their big claim to fame was that made the snuggie and we’re like, “Oh shit”. Wouldn’t it be crazy this thing caught on, and now you know, you here weighted blankets and gravity blankets all over the place and it’s like I caught up with my partner in L.A. a couple of weeks ago and we were kind of just like, yeah. We’re not going to say that it’s on the level of [inaudible 00:03:07]. We kind of did it.

Shaan Puri: It smells a little bit like it. It tastes a little bit like it. It might be-

John Fierentino: But we joked about, yeah.

Shaan Puri: So, for those who don’t know, what is the gravity blanket, and sort of a couple of sentences.

John Fierentino: Yeah. So. These sentences that it’s basically weighted heavy blanket. We have a 25 pound blanket, we have a 20 pound blanket, and a 15 pound blanket. And basically, the line is that sleeping with 10% of your body weight on top of you is an incredible anti-anxiety relieve tool. SO you have better sleep, distress, and it sort of feels like this hugging sensation on your body that has some pretty real effects on your body and mind.

Shaan Puri: Amazing. And so, we’re going to talk about how you guys came up with the idea, how you guys brought it to market, how you did this Kickstarter and raised all these money and really built the momentum. But I want to know, just initially, what’s the origin story? Where were you when you had the idea? You said you guys were walking around, or kind of joking at some point?

John Fierentino: Yeah, that was after. The starting point of this is like, in a very short sentence, I started a “tech” company. I was putting tablets in Ubers-

Shaan Puri: And by the way, he put air quotes on “tech”. I like that.

John Fierentino: I mean, I have to give it credit. We’re in San Francisco, I have to be careful. I had this whole idea of advertising in Ubers, which is, I guess, now like a-

Shaan Puri: A thing.

John Fierentino: A really big thing. I was a little early and it wasn’t really the company that I wanted to build so, you know, raised a bunch of money before I spent it all. Gave it back to all the investors and went back to zero. I was kind of like months of sleeping on the couch, started this company, shut it down, back on couches. So, I was back on couches, kind of freaking out, and I really had-

Shaan Puri: What was the freak out? Is like, “What am I going to do?” Or…

John Fierentino: Yeah, I mean, you know, I gave myself probably a two year window where I was like, “All right. I’m going to go from having nothing to trying to create something out of thing air. And if it doesn’t happen, then like, maybe I’ll have to go get that job at J.P. Morgan or something.

Shaan Puri: And, you know, the podcast is called “My first million”, and it’s called that because, for a long time I was like I want to be a millionaire. I thought people who have a million bucks, I was like wow they got all the bucks.

John Fierentino: That would [inaudible 00:05:11] up to me.

Shaan Puri: Yeah. But at the time, I felt that, and I think, still for a lot of people and a lot of place, definitely not San Francisco but a million bucks still is this amazing milestone. Same thing like a million downloads. When this podcast gets a million downloads [inaudible 00:05:24].

John Fierentino: Right, right, right.

Shaan Puri: When you say I was trying to create something out of thing air, was it more… Are you wired like me where I’m like, I just want to make successful businesses. I kind of don’t care, which field it’s in, but I just wanted to build a successful business. I don’t know why. I just wanted to really do it. What was your thought process around “I want to create something out of thing air”. What was something?

John Fierentino: After months of sleeping on couches, I started to get really desperate and I was like, I don’t really care what it is, I’ll sell bags of ice, ill have a lemonade stand, I don’t give shit, I just need something that is going to create this positive feedback loop where I can go and get off my friends’ couches.

John Fierentino: Yep. But, even that being said, there is like five or six ideas that I had, where it was like it didn’t hit me in the chest as much as something like a weighted blanket. To me, when I had that idea, I was working with sleep scientists.

John Fierentino: I was actually going to build a pillow and, in one of those sessions with the sleep scientists, she very passively was like, “Oh yeah”. And after the blanket, she’d look into sleeping with 10% of your body weight. And I was like, “What?”.

John Fierentino: I was like, “Wait, what did you just say?”, and she was like, “Yeah, if you sleep with 10% of your body weight, it’s this incredible anti-anxiety relief. And I was like, “Wow, wow, wow”. I was like, stop everything. Basically threw the pillow off the table and was like I have to learn more about this.

John Fierentino: I went out, I was searching for it. Really couldn’t find anything out there other than these children’s blankets for autistic kids. And some used for the medical field. But there wasn’t really anywhere where you could go and purchase these things for a normal use case in a normal person. They just wanted it to feel comfortable. And so, I was like, “Oh wow”. I made myself a ten-pound blanket and put it on my chest, and I passed out in 10 minutes.

Shaan Puri: What do you mean you made yourself… How do you make yourself a 10-pound blanket. What does that mean?

John Fierentino: I basically went on Amazon, bought these weighted pellets, and then sewed them into two sheets basically.

Shaan Puri: Why did you do that versus just buy one of these specialty witted blankets that were kind of fringe at the time?

John Fierentino: I did buy a bunch of those too but the websites, it sold them more like kind of crazy. It was easier [crosstalk 00:07:32] to make my own than to go on the internet and but it, which I was, “Okay. I hope this thing works because this will crush if it turns out to be what I hope it is.” And it was.

John Fierentino: When I put it on, and I fell asleep and woke up, I was like, “Oh my God, this… “. I don’t even care, I’m comfortable screaming about this to everyone that I know, because I know that it works.[crosstalk 00:07:53] I loved it so much. If I sat down and looked at it, pillows are probably a bigger market opportunity.

John Fierentino: That MyPillow guy is making 400 million a year, or whatever. I don’t know. I don’t know what was more fun for me, and what felt a little bit more unique and a little bit more special to me was something was idea of a weighted blanket because, you know, no one has ever seen that before.

John Fierentino: For me, it’s sort of a balance of these sort of invention, newness thing. Something that I would actually truly love and then, you know, is it going to be capable of actually being a real business. You know, I almost tweeted this the other day, but I’m trying to not tweet ever.

John Fierentino: Everyday, I sleep with a gravity blanket. I wake up and I meditate and do work on my moon pod. And then, at night, I light my birthday candle and have my little fun.

Shaan Puri: You’re living your lifestyle.

John Fierentino: I literally touch and use every product that I make everyday and I’ve had a bunch of other ideas that I know would be massive businesses but they just don’t really excite me…

Shaan Puri: It’s amazing how much better your execution gets when you are using your own product. You know what pin points the customer is going to have because you are the customer. You’re not guessing.

John Fierentino: Exactly.

Shaan Puri: So, it eliminates a whole feedback loop of wondering what the customer wants, doing research, talking to them, trying to figure out, “What they tell me, was that real, and what’s the truth?.” It’s like, “No, I know what I want, and I can test it on myself.” So that’s amazing. The other thing you said which is good and I want to call out, which is you just did the thing that was most interesting to you, not the thing necessarily that looked like the most business on paper. It passed the interestingness test.

John Fierentino: Yeah.

Shaan Puri: I don’t know what you thing, but there’s something to that. THere’s something following your gut on what’s interesting to you.

John Fierentino: I had a bunch of VCs tell me to do the pillow business and when I said the weighted blanket thing, they were like, “What?”. They were like, “What are you talking about?” And I was like, “No, no, no, you don’t get it. You got to use it.” And they were just like, “No, look at the tam on pillows [00:09:47]” or some shit. And I was like, “Shut up, you don’t get it”. So I went my own way, and I’m really glad that I did.

Shaan Puri: Yeah. You built the prototype yourself.

John Fierentino: Essentially.

Shaan Puri: You use it. You’re like, “Okay. I believe in this. I would be willing to shill for this because I believe in it”. What happens between there and, let’s say, the Kickstarter being successful. Tell me a little about how that came about.

John Fierentino: Yeah. So, it was long. It was kind of a long time. I had that dea and found that product, probably like five or six months before I even talked about launching it because I was basically broke with nothing. And so, it took me a really long time to get any sort of momentum.

Shaan Puri: And is that because you weren’t fully committed. So I see you’re still dabbling in other possibilities, other ideas, or you just didn’t have the means to do it?

John Fierentino: It was literally the means. I didn’t have… I really was making deals. I was promising my friends that if they let me stay on their couch for more than two weeks, I was going to take them on vacation when I was successful. I was living off a credit card that I gave myself. It was no interest or whatever for like a year and a half.

John Fierentino: It was literally all right. Everyday was how do I eat and sleep, and then, it was like, “Okay. Do I have an hour or two to explore this idea.” But then, you know, you need people, you need a team, you need money, you need all these things to come together and it took me a really long time to get that. So, eventually-

Shaan Puri: What were you doing to hustle to make money in the interim? Were you bartending? What were you doing?

John Fierentino: No. Nothing. I was taking a massive risk. I made this website called, and it was an idea. And this was the thing. All my days, I was testing out nine or ten ideas. I made this website,, and I basically said… The landing page was, “Sign up” and “This is a curated list of the best people and we all let each other stay on each other’s couches.” As I sent it to one friend-

Shaan Puri: Couch surfing but with the right host.

John Fierentino: Couch surfing with the right host with friends of a friend.

Shaan Puri: Yep.

John Fierentino: I sent it to one of my best friends and he was like, “Hey, can you send this to five of your best friends that you would want to sleep on your couch?”. And I actually got 500 people signed up to this thing. And then, I’d just would hit the list of those people and say, “Hey, I’m the guy. Can I come sleep on your couch for a week?”.

John Fierentino: And if I like them, then I would give them the deal. I would say, “If I can stay here for more than two weeks, when I get it together, I’ve take every one to Bermuda. And that basically was my hack to survive and sleep on couches but that took up a lot of my time. That took up most of my day to figuring out all that, testing the idea, finding the right people, all that.

John Fierentino: Then I started setting up people to stay with themselves, and it turned into this whole funny story. But that basically got me to a point where… Again it took me five or six months. I talked to a friend that had a media company. I was like, “Hey, media is in a really weird place right now.”

Shaan Puri: This is future [crosstalk 00:12:42]?

John Fierentino: Futurism. I was like, “Media is in a really weird place right now. I have all these product ideas, why don’t we partner? It would be a great way for you to show that you can bring revenue to a product. You could go do this to a bunch of other people, and it would be a great way for me to get my stuff off the ground.”

Shaan Puri: And that’s cool because most media companies are trying to do this ad model for affiliate links model, but you need huge scale, so…

John Fierentino: This kid was just a friend from NYU and that’s kind of the conversation. It was like, don’t go run that fool’s errand. Let’s try to do something new and he was like, “I’m down with that. Let’s try it out”. That was five or six months of just-

Shaan Puri: Finding the person.

John Fierentino: Chicken and rice, and couches, to find the friend that wanted to experiment with me.

Shaan Puri: You needed that because that had distribution built in. Is that it or-

John Fierentino: I thought it was really important to launch to a really big audience. IM not sure if that ended up being the case. I don’t think I would go and do that again. I wouldn’t go and partner with a media company to do this again.

Shaan Puri: Something you believed at the time.

John Fierentino: Right. It was this whole thesis of media, and product, and everything’s changing, and attention. It ended up basically just being Facebook. You just need to buy Facebook ads which would have been a lot simpler. But yeah, that was sort of the bet of, you know, I need a team, I need resources. Let’s launch this thing together. We’ll go to your audience, and it was clear that their audience was interested in a weighted blanket. And so, we were like this would be worth our time.

Shaan Puri: What do you mean by it was clear? Did you actually run a test with him, or you’re just guessing, “Oh futurism, they’ll be interested.” Or did you do some kind of content, or some test?

John Fierentino: Yeah. We did a quick sample size of just like, “Hey, is this something you guys would be interested in?”.

Shaan Puri: Okay. So you just asked them?

John Fierentino: Right. Yeah, yeah.

Shaan Puri: Okay. You still haven’t made the product, really. No manufacturing. I’m guessing, at this point, you don’t know how to do manufacturing of a product correctly. You’re like-

John Fierentino: So I kind of did. I had a handbag company in college. I was making women’s handbags. I did a few… I did women’s wear, I did a few seasons of women’s wear. I had manufacturing relationships, and I’ve made a few things before.

Shaan Puri: Just for the record, he’s wearing a blue t-shirt [crosstalk 00:14:42].

John Fierentino: He’s not the most fashionable… You know.

Shaan Puri: Oh, come on.

John Fierentino: No handbags, I don’t see anything here. But, I got pretty into it. We launched in New York fashion week. It was a whole thing. I was fashion boy.

Shaan Puri: Nice, you’re a hustler. Okay, good.

John Fierentino: So yeah. I mean, I had an idea, I knew that I could make a couple thousand blankets if it got down to it. I had no idea what was coming.

Shaan Puri: But you didn’t go make the blankets first.

John Fierentino: No.

Shaan Puri: You started the Kickstarter first.

John Fierentino: We did it on Kickstarter.

Shaan Puri: Going into that, did you think, “Oh, I got this playbook with this. Is this going to be a successful Kickstarter?”, or was it like, “I don’t know. We’ll just figure it out and see what happens.”

John Fierentino: It was up in the air. It was actually funny. We all took bets with me and the team that was helping me. We all took bets on what it would be. I had the highest bet. I thought it was going to do a million bucks and everyone thought I was insane. Everyone thought I was even more insane for the couple of months that we worked together, that I was trying to convince them to help me launch a weighted blanket. They were like, “Okay. This kid is ridiculous.”

Shaan Puri: Right.

John Fierentino: I thought it was going to do well. I knew it was going to do well. I didn’t think it was going to do that well, that quickly.

Shaan Puri: Right. What’s the trick? You want to do a successful Kickstarter, tell me about some of the elements that go into… why you think it worked for you guys? It may not work now, but at that time, these were the things you guys did to make that Kickstarter successful. I’d love to dig into some of the details of the core, critical components.

John Fierentino: We played into this whole, “Our mood board, as stupid as it sounds, was “Tesla for sleep”. Right? And so, we did gravity blanket, and we gave it this whole science feel. That was really when Elon Musk was the god of all gods. Where anything he did was retweeted 90 times.

Shaan Puri: We’re drinking the Kool-Aid. Everyone’s drinking the Kool-Aid.

John Fierentino: Exactly. No one had hated him yet. We got the branding right, we got the messaging right. We got the audience right, we got the timing right, this was right when Trump was getting elected and everyone was freaking out, and was like, “Oh, I’m not sleeping”. And also, the Casper thing, and the sleep thing, just happened.

John Fierentino: This was sort of taking a different angle where it was like, you know, This isn’t about, necessarily, sleep. It’s about our wellness, relaxation, and there’s no gender to this product. Everyone’s uses a blanket already, and it’s just, sort of, increasing the efficacy of a product that everyone is familiar with.

John Fierentino: So again, I could go down a list forever and dissect it. But the problem is, again, if I try to take this formula, and overlay it onto something else, it wouldn’t work. For moon pod, when I did the second Kickstarter, I approached it completely different.

John Fierentino: I didn’t get a media partner. I didn’t try to launch with this big grandeur thing. I didn’t spend a lot of money because I didn’t thing the product was right for that. I didn’t spend a lot of money on advertising. The value prop was different. The value was different. It was like, you have to really…

Shaan Puri: You looked at the fundamentals. You’re like, “what do I have, what do I need?”

John Fierentino: A 100%

Shaan Puri: I want to bring up a couple things that you said, because they are kind of nuanced. We won’t go too far into the details but you made some decisions. Anytime you launch a product, there’s this decision tree you go down. By the end, for successful products, it’s like, “Oh, of course. Of course that makes sense”.

Shaan Puri: You would called it the gravity blanket, you would make it gray, neutral, and not pink, or blue, or whatever. You would use the science thing rather than, something out of a different angle to market it. Give us a sense of, what are some of the other forks that you could have taken. In an alternate universe, it was not called gravity blanket, it was called bla, bla, bla. Instead of going after science, you were going to go a different angle to position it. What were some of the alternates that you guys ruled out.

John Fierentino: I mean, we joked about it. We joked about calling it the Trump blanket. We joked about calling it a boyfriend blanket, or a girlfriend blanket, because everyone was like, “Oh, I don’t need a significant other to snuggle with. I’ll buy a gravity”.

Shaan Puri: Boyfriend blanket might have worked.

John Fierentino: Boyfriend blanket might have worked. It just didn’t. It’s a balance between having these ideas that you can test, but then, at the end of the day, this is why quant hedge funds don’t really work, and why AB testing your way to product market fit doesn’t really work. There are still cons, and time where you have to have real product in sight, real confidence, and a vision, and just take that bet on your gut.

John Fierentino: If you try to do this whole thing like, “Here’s the decision tree, and here is this, and let’s maybe test this”, you just get lost, and you forget that feeling you had when I first put it on myself. And that was the feeling that I really leaned into when I was driving and making all these decisions. It was like, “Okay, yeah. This is a joke. Let’s call it a boyfriend blanket,” and I was like, “I don’t know-

Shaan Puri: This not how you felt when you used it.

John Fierentino: This is too serious. I was like, this is too real. This isn’t a joke. This is going to change how people sleep. And so, it was like, gravity blanket, we’re going to move towards this idea of science because there was science there, so it really is about… You know it’s good to explore and have on the table, all of these different areas that you could go, but at the end of the day, I really am a believer that comes from having some sort of real gut insight.

Shaan Puri: On the products that you can’t ab test away, the possibilities do exist, and do come to your brain, and you use something. Either data, or just conviction around which path to go down. And so, you were making these decisions as you were going. So there’s that element. The other thing you said that was interesting was product promise. I’ve used this term, I’ve actually not heard anyone else say it. So when you said it, I kind of got excited because the way I look at business is, every product makes a promise to a customer. What am I going to do for you?

Shaan Puri: You got to make the right promise, because if you are promising something I don’t care about, then I’m just going to ignore you, right? If I promised you that I could turn your hair blue, if you don’t care about your hair turning blue, who cares. You don’t care about me. So, you got to make the right promise, and you got to live up to it. The promise of the gravity blanket is what? Is it to reduce anxiety, is it to… What is the simple promise that you’re trying to make with that product?

John Fierentino: Yeah. So, you know, I spent a ton of time on this, and we landed on the tagline that really worked for us was “A 25-pound blanket for sleep, stress, and anxiety. It took a while to get there, to find that simple sentence. But really, if you’re using it to sleep better, you’re going to probably sleep better. So, we were like, “Okay. That works”. If you’re stressed out and you throw it over you, it will probably calm you down. Okay, that’s good. And if you have this crazy anxiety that’s happening, and you sort of throw it on top of yourself, this same thing is going to happen. All those promises that we were making, we were super, super confident that it’s going to be delivered from the majority of the customers.

Shaan Puri: Let’s give people a sense of the scale of things. You did a Kickstarter, you hit five million bucks of essentially pre-sales.

John Fierentino: Yep.

Shaan Puri: Today, what has the product done in sales now? How far did it go? How far did the gravity blanket really go?

John Fierentino: Yeah. It’s a lot. We’ve been around for two years. I have sort of stepped away, and the team there is scaling it in a really incredible way online mostly. We’re starting to get into some retail stuff and whatever. I don’t want to speak for them.

Shaan Puri: I read a number that said 15 million when I was doing my research for this. It’s done over 15 million is sales.

John Fierentino: That’s printed somewhere?

Shaan Puri: Yes, that’s printed somewhere.

John Fierentino: Okay. Amazing. It’s a little more than that now, obviously, because that was probably what, a year ago-

Shaan Puri: Yeah. Maybe.

John Fierentino: A couple months ago? It’s grown since then. But again, it’s a super healthy business. It was profitable from day one. And when that happens, you have this positive feedback loop of gas that helps it grow.

Shaan Puri: You developed that product, and you’ve developed subsequent products since you said moon pod. What’s the other one, the candle?

John Fierentino: The candle’s fun. It’s a-

Shaan Puri: Tell us about the promise that those made.

John Fierentino: Yeah. Totally. Moon pod was a similar promise. I started freaking out, and was like, “Holy Shit. What if I’m just the blanket guy forever? What if I can never-

Shaan Puri: The one hit wonder.

John Fierentino: Right and it was like, you know… You asked, why did it work, and how do you have a successful thing. I was really scared that I just got lucky, or that it was because this or that, or maybe Facebook was cheap or something, or the audience that I had access to, maybe I did just trick everyone into buying something and ill never be able to that again. I was freaking out.

John Fierentino: The second that gravity hit, I was like Oh my God, I have to come up with number two. I went over to Japan alone, to sort of have a chill out, and I started just seeing all of these bean bags and I was like, wow, there isn’t a great bean bag in the United States.” I was like, “Okay”. I sat in a few in Japan, and kind of had that same feeling that I had when I put gravity on, where it’s like my chest sort of, you know… It felt like my soul sort of left my body, and I was sort of just in this bliss.

John Fierentino: I was like, “Holy shit. This is another product, will that happen again?” I went home, and I bought a bunch of bean bags to test them out. I wasn’t happy with any of them. But when I used some of the bean bags with the gravity blanket, I was like, “Oh my God!. This is the perfect platform to use with gravity blanket. Amazing”. I was like, “okay”.

Shaan Puri: Complementary.

John Fierentino: Complementary. I would sit on it when I was stressed, when I needed a nap, or I had anxiety.

Shaan Puri: What makes it better than a normal bean bag that I’ve experienced here, you know, growing up in the states?

John Fierentino: Totally. We have pretty cool, rounded design that’s super unique. And then, the material that we use. There’s like a dual membrane where we have an inner layer and an outer layer. The outer layer is this elastic jersey type of thing that holds it form. Th inner bead is this custom, high friction bead that we found.

John Fierentino: There’s only one guy in the U.S. that makes these things the way that I wanted them to, and that would work with me. With this whole combination, you basically get this sensation that your kind of floating, and you are supported, and it can turn into a chair, and it’s this weird modular thing. You don’t see that out there. It’s like love sack, and a few others that are just like this big, giant sack of foam.

Shaan Puri: Yeah. I’ve seen those.

John Fierentino: This is sort of this lightweight, malleable support system. It’s sort of like you feel it in your lower back any, which way you lean into it, it sort of pushes back against you. You know, that was pretty unique. There aren’t a lot of people doing that. No one’s really telling the story that we’re telling, where it’s kind of like, hey, this is an adult bean bag. It’s okay. It is kind of the best place to sit when you want to do work, or chill out, or hang out.

Shaan Puri: Normally, on podcast, I remarkably don’t talk to the guests so much about their product because it ends up feeling like a sales pitch because usually the person is really into the product and people are here for moral of the story. In your case, I just really want to talk about it because it probably gives it naturally interesting. I feel like it’s interesting to everybody.

John Fierentino: Okay. This is the secret-

Shaan Puri: A viral product, right?

John Fierentino: But this is the secret. Everyone focuses so much on other shit that doesn’t matter. It’s like-

Shaan Puri: The tactics, you mean.

John Fierentino: What’s your conversion rate, or this, or this. It’s like, wait, what are you selling. Whenever I sit down, I always talk about the product, because that shit is the most exciting. That’s why we’re here. That’s what we’re selling. I’m not selling some arbitrage on Facebook, or some access to an email list, or some sale. It’s like no, no, no. It’s so fucking simple. I make the best bean bag ever.

John Fierentino: That’s it. That’s why we’re here. My weighted blanket feels incredible. There really isn’t much else to talk about. Everything else is blocking and tackling. It’s like, get that moment, and find that product that makes you wan to talk about it, you know, you say you don’t really ask these questions but it’s because I’ve spent time finding these products that are interesting, that people want to talk about.

Shaan Puri: Yes.

John Fierentino: That is sort of something that no one really talks about, which is crazy to me. There are so many people that come to me and have all these questions, and I’m like, “Great. What are you selling?”, and they are like, “Oh, it’s a snack that this”. I’m like, “Great. Why is it different than this, this, and this?”, they are like, “Well, it has a different logo,” and I’m like, “Well, I don’t care”.

Shaan Puri: Right. Now, now.

John Fierentino: Yes. Okay.

Shaan Puri: I would say, your very simplistic approach to this is inspiring. When you were saying that, you were like, “I got the main thing right, and I kept the main thing the main thing”.

John Fierentino: Yeah.

Shaan Puri: That’s the thing to do. Why are we all distracting ourselves? I like that. I like that approach very much.

John Fierentino: I heard that Fiverr energy guy, who’s like idle stuff. He said the same shit. He was one of my bus rides around California, when I was just trying to figure it out. They were like, “Why haven’t Coke, or Pepsi, or whoever come and notch you out of the water?”, and he was like, “They always forget about the most important things. It’s the product”. He’s like, “I made the best formula and nobody can copy it”. Why does coke still exist? Yes there is a very real argument that they own distribution and all this shit, but I don’t care.

John Fierentino: If you’d just replace Coca-cola with Moxie, I’m not being tempted by Moxie. I’m not caving in. I’m not leaving the gym and still being like, “I don’t know. I kind of want to treat myself to a Moxie just because it’s in my face.” Coca-cola tastes like magic. It is incredible, it is consistent. I have never tasted anything like it. That wins for a reason. There’s a reason why this special coke formula is this massive secret that no one can ever copy is because they understand that it’s the product.

Shaan Puri: Here in San Francisco, there’s a lot of people that will disagree with you. Not just on Coke being great as a drink, but just everyone [crosstalk 00:27:39] demand, supply chain, everything else, and I like that you have a different take on it.

John Fierentino: You have to have all of it. You have to have all of it but a lot of people that are just going out and raising two million bucks to put a different logo on toothpaste or something. I don’t know man. I don’t know if I’d take that bet. I don’t know if I’d want to spend five years of my life just, sort of, doing a brand exercise. Getting it on the shelves of a few retailers.

Shaan Puri: Right.

John Fierentino: That’s not really that exciting, and don’t tell me that you’re changing people’s lives because you’re not. Again, it’s just like, find that magic moment, and you can do the equation, you can raise money, you can tap all these distributors, and you can throw it in someone’s face, but at the end of the day, it’s not going to really last or work unless someone naturally falls in love with it. And that comes down to the product.

Shaan Puri: Your story reminds me a little bit of the founders of Calm. Do you know those guys?

John Fierentino: I don’t.

Shaan Puri: Alex and-

John Fierentino: We worked with the gravity. The gravity team worked with them. We did a whole collaboration with them.

Shaan Puri: I’m going to have them on podcast. They’re good friends, and Alex has this crazy life story, where he was, I think, twenty or twenty-one years old, and he created He was like, “How do I make a million dollars?”. He’s the reason why this podcast should exist, really. He’s got the best stories. I’m going to have him on, but he made a homepage. Did you ever see milliondollarhomepage? Do you know what this is?

John Fierentino: No.

Shaan Puri: So, he took a website, this back, year 2000, or something like that. I don’t know exactly when it was. But, internet wasn’t super mature yet. He takes a website, and he just divides it up into a thousand by thousand pixels.

John Fierentino: Oh, I saw this. I saw this. It was sick.

Shaan Puri: He just sold every pixel, every square for a dollar.

John Fierentino: Sick.

Shaan Puri: And you could buy ten of them, or whatever. He, in a few weeks, sells a million dollars of advertising on this website.

John Fierentino: Fucking amazing.

Shaan Puri: And he was like, “Be a part of internet history,” and he played the PR machine, and whatever. SO he makes a million bucks, he spends it within a year, because he’s 21 years old, he’s having fun. He blows it. He enjoyed it. But he thought, “All right, the next hit’s right around the corner”. The next ten years, he basically failed to make another hit. But he kept trying, kept trying, kept trying, until he makes Calm. Calm was not an instant hit either. Calm is a meditation app.

John Fierentino: Yep.

Shaan Puri: Probably one of the most popular meditation apps in the world. It’s valued over a billion dollars now. At the time, I remember talking to him when he was starting it. I was like, “you’re doing a meditation app?”, it’s kind of a crazy story but he was still in the same space you’re in, which was around anti-anxiety, distressing, getting better sleep, having better focus. These are the core needs that society was feeling giving the way that the world has evolved. He came at it from a very different angle. A meditation app. But I feel that you guys were solving some of the same pain point. Like you said, there’s a lot of… It’s like a sleep boom. There’s a lot of sleep products nowadays.

John Fierentino: Yeah. Again, it’s all… Like I said, you got to get ninety things right at the same time. I don’t know where this collective agreement in the world is, that everyone is more stressed out than ever, right now. I don’t know where that comes from, but it’s a problem people need help with.

Shaan Puri: Do you say that because you don’t believe that, when you say “I don’t know where that comes from.”? Are you saying-

John Fierentino: Oh no. I really [crosstalk 00:30:39] political. I don’t know if it’s environment.

Shaan Puri: Oh, you don’t know the cause.

John Fierentino: Yeah. I don’t where this thing is coming from, but everyone is like, “I am so stressed. I’m tethering on depression, I need help”. For some reason, it seems more than ever that this idea around getting relief for the stress is so important. And again, yeah, I don’t know. Weighted blankets where around for a while.

Shaan Puri: How do people feel who made weighted blankets and never saw one hundredth of the success that you guys found very quickly with it? Where they encouraging you because they were like, “Great. Now this is going to market,” or were they jealous of you guys for just taking the concept and just commercializing it, and making it mainstream?

John Fierentino: Yeah I don’t know. A few people called me that had companies, and they were like, “Oh my God, thank you so much. You tripled our sales, you grew the category, and now everybody knows about it. It’s just up to the consumer, which one they like better, and thank you, thank you, thank you”. Other people wrote articles calling us… They thought we were the devil that stole… There was no patent, there was no invention, it was just this thing that is really great for people, and everyone loves, and definitely seems like it’s helping everyone that tries it.

John Fierentino: I’d like to have an optimistic view of it, were we just have this thing that a bunch of people wanted, and we told a different story. I opened up a brand new use case for a whole new market segment. But you hear that in business all the time. There’s a product that exists that’s being used for one thing, and it’s like, oh wait, that can also be used in this way, for this new set of people. And it takes off.

Shaan Puri: Right.

John Fierentino: Can I actually go to the bathroom?

Shaan Puri: Sure. All right. While he goes to the restroom, this podcast is sponsored by nobody. Our sponsor pulled out for season two just a few days ago. So we got to find a new sponsor. Until then, enjoy the ad-free podcast. And if you’re a sponsor looking to get on the show, or get your message in front of a bunch of entrepreneurs, email me. [email protected] And if you’re a sponsor looking to get in front of our audience, we’re doing over a hundred thousand downloads every month and growing. Let me know. We have a big audience, entrepreneurs, business people, people looking to make money. We are open for business.

Shaan Puri: All right. Back from the bathroom break. Here we go. I wanted to basically go round out by, I have two things that I like to leave people with. The first is, you mentioned this candle, and I really just wanted to know what it is. Can you give me one minute on what this candle is, because I got to check this out.

John Fierentino: Totally. I just had this funny idea about… I saw the astrology thing happening, and I’ve actually secretly been a huge fan of astrology, for my whole life. My sister had all these books about birthdays, and what it means. Do people honor your birthday? I had this idea about, what if you took this whole astrology text around what it means to be born on your birthday, and we put those on candles?

John Fierentino: So we had 365 candles, one for everyday of the year. You buy the one that’s on your birthday, and we give you basically this whole reading, and then we give your strengths, weaknesses. It’s like the day of the charismatic lion, or whatever. And then, there’s like three paragraphs in the back that has a pretty awesome, accurately describes what it means to be born on your day.

Shaan Puri: What do you mean by accurately? I’m a non-believer. Okay. So just-

John Fierentino: See, I think you’re wrong. I think you’re wrong.

Shaan Puri: So two days ago, or 36 hours ago, my daughter was born. My first child was born-

John Fierentino: You got to tell me more.

Shaan Puri: September 8th, craziest day of my life.

John Fierentino: I’ll send her a candle.

Shaan Puri: Yes. The funny thing is I’m at the hospital and there’s these doctors, and everything is science. They are taking labs. They are asking questions. Everything is science, and then they are like, “Oh, Virgo baby, you know what that means. I’m a Virgo.” They are not just making conversation. I can tell they totally believe this.

John Fierentino: It’s real.

Shaan Puri: And so, I kind of had this bucket of dead in the hocus pocus land. I never put any stock into it. But it caught my attention yesterday, when they were saying this, that they really believe. And we were also renaming her, so her name is Blush, and we were looking up the etymology of a name. And then, you see this thing where we looked up her middle name.

Shaan Puri: Her middle name is Elani, and it means… I looked up the definition, it was a brave, charismatic girl who bla, bla, bla, all these amazing things that, obviously, I want to be true. But I’m also a little skeptical. Is this just a fortune cookie telling me a nice positive thing? When you say accuracy, I question that. What do you mean by accuracy?

John Fierentino: My answer is, what does it matter? Right? And, you know, this is a way-

Shaan Puri: So you’re down with the placebo style thing, correct?

John Fierentino: I read an article the other day, someone… I’m not saying astrology is placebo for all the astrology people out there, but I read this article the other day that made an incredible case that it is unethical to not give patients the placebo before they’re actually prescribed the real thing because it is the most powerful, with the most success rate-

Shaan Puri: And no down sides.

John Fierentino: And no down sides.

Shaan Puri: Right. That makes sense.

John Fierentino: And again, when we’re talking about products, and what works, and what this, it’s like, what’s the most powerful thing in the world? It’s a story. What do you do when you pick up something. Okay, water. Why do you choose that water? Smart water. This is going to help me with this and this. It’s a story that you tell yourself, and it’s a promise that you make to yourself. Every time you interact with an object, you’re picking it up, and you’re choosing it, and you’re like, “Okay, blue shirt today, this is why I want the blue shirt”. And you’re telling yourself this in a narrative.

Shaan Puri: Yes.

John Fierentino: That is incredibly powerful, and there is something where you have this idea of a mantra, or a prayer, regardless of what you’re telling yourself. If you’re just telling yourself anything about yourself, it’s going to probably come true. Astrology, two things… I’ll go down the story teller mythic answer of why astrology is really interesting, and then the scientific answer, where there actually might be something there.

Shaan Puri: Okay. Give it to me.

John Fierentino: Is one, again, the stories that you tell yourself probably will end up happening. It’s super powerful when you are presented with an object that tells a certain story about yourself or the thing in the promise. When that comes true, you start to believe it, and it’s reinforcing positive cycles. When you say “Oh, I’m a Leo, you’re charismatic and passionate”. Every time I look at my candle, I’m like, boom. I got to be charismatic and passionate because that’s who I am. I’m calling so one… And inviting them to dinner, and then, all of a sudden, I’m charismatic and passionate. Where did that come from? Is that some DNA insight of me that was formed around the astrologic birth of me, or is that a story that I’m telling myself? Does it matter? I don’t think it matters because it’s happening, and it’s working-

Shaan Puri: The result happens.

John Fierentino: And it’s sticking around. Astrology has been around for longer than most religions. It is something that people are continually obsessed about. Right now, it’s becoming mora and more, but again, yes you can say it’s not rooted in science and whatever, but there is something magical about a story that makes people, sort of, light up. That moment, I think is one of the most important moments in someone’s day, or in their life, is that moment of just pure bliss.

John Fierentino: I think, depending on… There are some things, whether it’s bad or it’ll lead to something like drugs or whatever, I think for the most part, if it’s positive, and harmless, and reinforcing some good aspect about yourself, I think it’s amazing. When people hit me up about the astrology thing, they’re like, “I light that thing everyday, and I am reminded about the best parts of myself, and I’m reminded about the parts of myself that I need to focus on and work on. It just make me feel really great and it smells really good too”.

John Fierentino: At the end of the day, I think it helps, and I think it’s good. I don’t think it matters why it works, I just think it kind of works.

Shaan Puri: Yeah. That resonates with me. I have a believe around this. Which is, everything that I believe to be true is just a story. I don’t actually know what’s true and what’s not. The question is, if everything is essentially a story, right, we create the shortcuts in our brain that tells us this is this, when in actuality, you may not be seeing half of what’s there, you may not know the root of it. Very little in our life, we know the truth about. We create these stories and then they live with us.

Shaan Puri: The question then is, does this story serve me? There are some stories that don’t serve you. They actually detract you. It’s a story you tell about yourself, that why you can’t do this, or why you’re bad at this, or why bla bla bla. Why this other thing is really bad for you and your life. And then, there’s other stories that serve you.

Shaan Puri: I’m not a religious guy, but I think religion is one of the most powerful stories that serve people. It helps people behave in a way that makes them have a better life, and they’re happier, and the statistic show that people who have faith in their life have higher quality of life and do better.

Shaan Puri: They have lower risk of a whole bunch of really bad things that could happen to a human being. The question really isn’t what is the truth, because, that might be an impossible task, but the better question might be, if this is a story in my life, is this story serving me? And if it is, great. Let me double down on it.

Shaan Puri: If it’s not serving me, let me try to figure out, is there another story that’s a better frame of that thing in my life, that thing that’s happening to me. That’s how I’ve lived my life, until, I guess my skepticism about the astrology could actually go back into that same bucket, where, if lighting this candle made me feel good everyday, who cares what the reason is that it makes me feel good.

John Fierentino: It just makes you feel good.

Shaan Puri: If they were to feel good, which is the goal I have anyways, and choosing to believe can be all the difference.

John Fierentino: Because it’s really just branding. There’s this whole thing happening now. I’ve been looking a lot at the story of Jesus, and the Bible, which is again just a story that has not gone away. What is that? What is the mechanics in that story? Why wouldn’t they tell you to do this, this, and this, and look up to the heavens and pray. What is praying? Praying is literally forcing you to tell yourself a narrative of what you want.

John Fierentino: I have a super religious friend that has been making us pray when I eat with him. I started giggling at it, and then, he just started saying these things, and I was like, oh shit, what would I actually say, what would I ask myself for, or what would I ask the heavens for? I didn’t even know how to put it into word. When I started to put it into words, all of my things in that day started leading more closer to getting the thing that I asked for. Is that some magical man in the sky granting me a thing, or is that me just basically tricking myself into some sort of positive reinforcing to get the thing closer. It doesn’t matter.

Shaan Puri: It doesn’t matter.

John Fierentino: It doesn’t matter. Have you ever seen “Life of Pi”?

Shaan Puri: I haven’t but I know roughly the story.

John Fierentino: It’s so good. I saw this a while ago, and I really didn’t understand it but at the end of the movie, he tells the whole story about how there are these animals on the thing, and he killed them all, and had to eat them, or whatever. The scientist that is interviewing him is like, “Well, there’s all these evidence that I wasn’t animals, and that it was people, and you killed these people, and you ate them. Which one was it?”, and he was like, “Which one do you like better?”. The guy was like, “I like the animals one”.

John Fierentino: And he was like, “Same. Did you learn anything different? Would anything change if it was people?”, and he was like, “No. Not really. It’s kind of the same message”. He was like, “Exactly”. Whether or not this is a scientific story, or it’s a religious story, they’re both probably going to lead you to a similar place.

John Fierentino: I mean, you hear a scientist, like Neil deGrasse Tyson or some shit talking, he is preaching. That is a narrative preach. He has no clue… There is some scientific evidence around the experience but he’s talking about this and that, and then an article would come out next week that debunk it. And it’s like, oh shit, that was a narrative around science that just completely got disproven. SO what is so scientific about it.

John Fierentino: I was looking at strange theory shit. There are these different narratives that make sense, but they don’t really make sense in other… I was like, “You’re just talking about stories. Don’t call this strange theory. This isn’t scientific. There’s nothing to back this thing up. It’s strange story. I don’t know. Do what makes you feel good.

Shaan Puri: On the self reinforcement, I’m a big Tony Robins guys. A lot of people have all different kinds of opinions about him. The one thing he said that actually stood out to be true. Have you ever noticed if you go car shopping, which we really think he was doing, because having a baby, we wanted to go from a sports car to a SUV, and so, get a family car.

Shaan Puri: You ever notice when you go car shopping, let say you’re looking for BMWs, for the next week, when you’re driving around, you’d be seeing BMWs everywhere. You’d be like, “Ah man, look, that’s the model. O there’s another one. O there’s another one.” It is not that BMWs started popping up everywhere, they’ve been there the whole time.

Shaan Puri: You’re just now looking for them, and your brain is filtering. Because there’s so much going on, our brain has a mechanism in it to filter out everything it thinks is unnecessary. Once you start saying now BMWs are necessary for me to learn about, think about, consider, your brain starts letting those in.

Shaan Puri: Similar principle applies where I have this app that, basically at the end of the day, just asks “What are you grateful for today?”. This habit of basically writing down three moments of the day that I’m grateful for. The first day I tried it, I was like, okay, great. I want to be more grateful, I want to have a gratitude practice. Let’s do this. And I sat down. I couldn’t remember anything from the day.

Shaan Puri: Couldn’t remember what I had for lunch, didn’t remember any grateful moments. OI kind of struggled the first day. Second day, similarly embarrassing. By the third day, during the day, I was like, “Huh, that’s going to be one of my one’s tonight.” I’m going to have my three tonight. My brain started logging things I’m grateful for, therefore, I started being grateful for more things. It was like this reinforcing thing. For me, that’s what I’ve experienced. I think that could apply to many more things in my life. I want to use that for more things.

John Fierentino: Depending on what you’re doing, basically, that is prayer. Basically, that is like ending your days with some prayer. What is the prayer? You say what you’re grateful for, you ask what you need, and you thank God. It’s like people have been doing that forever for a reason. I don’t think people are that different, and I don’t think much changes. Again, you just rebranded the story of prayer by saying it was an app. Okay. Call it whatever you want, do it however you want, but those core mechanics of how people work, I don’t think change that much.

John Fierentino: I think that a lot of people are really skittish around accepting that right now, for some reason. I think the more people are honest with themselves, and open about certain things, and maybe not being certain about other things, and being open that there might be a new possibility, that they haven’t just emotionally clung to, maybe that would kind of help as much as the way the blanket just sort of distress the world.

Shaan Puri: Okay. There ends the spirituality portion of the podcast. It would finish up with the money round, which is very short questions, that are sort of like rapid fire. Just whatever comes to mind. If you can’t think of one, feel free either throw out some BS or just pass. Either way is fine.

Shaan Puri: The first question is, what is the, sort of, best under $200 purchase of a product that improved the quality of your life, Like the products you’ve made, but not something you’ve made. You disqualify your own product.

John Fierentino: I want to say, every once in a while, a Coca-cola. It makes me so happy, and I get so pumped, and I think about it, and I’m like, God, they did everything right, it’s perfect, it’s magic. I dot drink them every day, I don’t drink them every week. But every once in a while, a can of coca-cola pumps me up. Best [inaudible 00:45:27] out there.

Shaan Puri: I have to have part of my first coke in five years. That’s what I’m going to have today. After this conversation. My mouth is salivating from the conversation. All right. Next one is, when you made your first million bucks, what was the feeling like, what was that day like when you realized that financially, you’ve made it to the step? Where you won’t be back on the couch anymore, or that sort of thing. What was the feeling like when you hit financial freedom?

John Fierentino: It was not that sick, at all. I did not feel great. I used work for this one guy that told me he had a mental breakdown the first time he made money, and I was like, “I don’t believe you. You’re such an idiot. Shut up. Be grateful”

Shaan Puri: Give me the money if you’re going to act like that.

John Fierentino: Give me the money. Okay. Sick. And then, it happened and I was like, oh shit, he was right. I guess it’s the wrong framework. I don’t really believe that… And again, you kind of have to get it to realize that it’s wrong. I like that Jim Carey line where he was like, “I wish everyone would be famous and rich so that they realize that’s not the answer.

Shaan Puri: That’s not what they want. Yeah.

John Fierentino: The most valuable thing from all of this shit was having absolutely zero money, less than zero money, and figuring out how to survive off of that, and I’ve… Zero has never felt better. It’s the most freeing thing, and now, money is this thing that exists, that’s sort of a scorecard. But I literally don’t spend money on anything. It does not change my lifestyle. It doesn’t change my thought process. It doesn’t change how I build the companies. It doesn’t change how I think about products. All of that shit, the real, real, real, real magic is, kind of, free. But then the shiner line of the second best things cost a lot of money.

Shaan Puri: Yeah.

John Fierentino: So yeah. Didn’t feel that great but again, that wasn’t really why I was doing it. It was never to get a million bucks. It was just to make something work. And okay, cool. Money came along with it, great but…

Shaan Puri: What’s something that you said “I don’t spend a lot of money,” and I think that’s pretty calm among most people that are in this room, sitting in that chair you’re sitting in right now. But I think everybody has something that they almost don’t realize that they spend freely on now. I had the founder of Native deodorant on last week, and he said, “I never think about the prices on the menu anymore.

Shaan Puri: I love to eat great food. And I just order whatever I want. If my mum is there, she’s like, “Oh no. Don’t get that,” and he’s like, “No. We’re going to get the drink, and the appetizer like, it’s not a lot of money, but he just feels his price insensitive on that now. Is there anything you’re now price insensitive about that you like?

John Fierentino: All of those things, it caused me crazy stress of just like, late fees, change fees, stuff on the menu. The founders fund guys, the reason why I’m out here is that I’m going to Montana with them tomorrow, and I didn’t pack anything. I’m going to buy shoes out there because it’s easier, and that is incredible. That’s kind of the only thing. I recently got into watches, which is the thing that I’ve always told myself forever, that would be the only thing that I spend a lot of money on. That lately has brought me a lot of happiness. Have you been to the interval down there?

Shaan Puri: I’ve not.

John Fierentino: The interval down in Fort Mason is like this bar that’s all about time. It’s the coolest place ever. You got to go. But yeah, just like that zero to fifty dollar purchase that used to make me throw up, I dot care about anymore. That is by far the best thing possible. You don’t need that much money there to live like that.

Shaan Puri: Right. Great. Essential wrap up, a lot of people like to reach out after the episodes. They’d be like, “Wow, that was inspiring, loved your story. Can you help me with this, bla, bla, bla”. People reach out for all different kinds of reasons. Sometimes, compliments, sometimes requests. They both come hand in hand. Do you want to be contacted, how should people follow you, or contact you, social media, whatever. Shout it out so that people can, kind of, get more John if they want more John.

John Fierentino: Totally, totally, so definitely reach out. I’d like to hear peoples stories, I’d like to be helpful. I’m hiring, always hiring, always looking for partners. I have a bunch of ideas that I am about to launch. That are going to be their own companies. So if anyone is out there, interested in joining, always happy to chat or help them on their own. I would probably say Instagram is the best. Slide into those DMs, I would say. My Instagram is @john_fierentino. That’s probably the best way to contact me.

Shaan Puri: Awesome, cool brother, thank you for doing this. I appreciate the flexibility on the timing.

John Fierentino: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shaan Puri: I told you, I was like, “Dude, you’re due to have a baby.” That’s so sick.

John Fierentino: It is.

Shaan Puri: I’m jealous, man. That’s next. That’s the next chapter. The greatest product [crosstalk 00:49:48] of all time. That’s the answer. Speaking of, I got to go back. I left my wife for one hour too many. So I got to get out of here, but this was great.

John Fierentino: All right, man.

Shaan Puri: Thanks.